Helmut Leitner

Hi, I'm a software developer and stumbled over Wiki Wiki Web only today August, 6 2000. I was immediately attracted because a lot of my working and thinking is based on Language Oriented Programming using Camel Case names that form a kind of Meta Language. I call this language THELOP or in Wiki Speak Thelop Language. Perhaps I will try the Wiki Wiki Web and write a bit more about these ideas. [This was the first I ever wrote in a wiki and I keep this for sentimental reasons.]

email address:
leitner (at) wikiservice (dot) at

or see some of my work at


Some of my Wiki related projects:

[Dec 2000] To read the Wiki Wiki Web from 'A' to 'Z' (to get a complete intuitive understanding for all aspects of a wiki). [finished 'Z' on Mar 18]

[Dec 2000] To build a complete infrastructure to host German wikis.

[Aug 2002] Extend the software for hosting English wikis.

[Sep 2002] "The Ogden Experiment" towards the foundations of natural language using a wiki, see www.usemod.com

[Nov 2002] A German wiki community "network against violence"

[Aug 2002] Revive and promote an idea by John De Bruyn:
see Tour Bus Stop.

[Aug 2003] Fractality and Contextuality in an experimental wiki. See www.wikiservice.at

[Okt 2003] Gr├╝nderWiki (German online, for founders and regulars of wikis and online communities)

[Nov 2003] Using Wiki for "virtual data" and system modelling applications

[Apr 2004] Various support for "wiki at school" (Free Wikis For Schools) and e-learning functions, support for TeX and drawing (gnuplut, dotty, neato, ...)

[Jan 2005] starting a wiki pattern language, see www.usemod.com

[Aug 2009] a wiki for the International Colour Association

quite a number of additional wiki projects, more than I want to document here

Some of the wikis I installed:


www.thetolkienwiki.org (Tolkiens literary work)

www.wikiservice.at (support for English users)

www.prowiki.org (the D programming language)

www.prowiki2.org (an open personal wiki)


www.wikiservice.at (Deutsches Software Entwickler Wiki = German Software Developer Wiki)

www.wikiservice.at (books and literature)

www.wikiservice.at (supporting wiki communities)

www.wikiservice.at (a wiki supporting German users)

www.prowiki2.org (a Swiss school, canton Glarus)

www.dorfwiki.org (village projects)

www.wikiservice.at (a wiki for teenagers)

The wiki engine I use was initially the Use Mod engine 0.88 (Thanks to Clifford Adams, its a great software I often recommend) but in Feb 2001 so many changes had added up that I had to fork away from Use Mod Wiki. No chance to keep a common code base. The new name of this wiki engine is Pro Wiki Engine.

BTW I found glimpses of this wiki's history: Overcoming Openness web.archive.org

Helmut, the WelcomeDaterVisitors page repeatedly gets taken over by spammers. Can you restore a good version of it? Or perhaps the "Way Back" link I substituted above is good enough? Your home page appears to have the only link to WelcomeDaterVisitors. -- Elizabeth Wiethoff

You can find me at Meatball Wiki or any of the wiki projects above.

In response to the discussion we had on Meatball Commentary, cause it's just becoming too unwieldly there, and until we find a better place, here are my comments:

You may have gathered a lot of expertise on technical stuff and rather academic stuff at Meat Ball, but on the other hand it is rather painfully obvious that you are slow to understand people. First of all, I understand criticism and I enjoy it, see Critical Spirit and Critics Are Your Best Friends which I started at some non-trivial personal cost in the glorious culture where Dale Carnegie has some kind of intellectual standing. Did I mention that I expect you to Criticize Bluntly?

Second, my observation about ego at Meat Ball has nothing to do with the outward appearances vis-a-vis signatures. It's ego that is betrayed involuntarily rather than asserted by obvious means. I agree that signatures have nothing to do with ego, and I happen to have defended the use of signatures on c2. When I'll have time, I'll try to correct the Egoless Wiki page that may have kead you in the wrong direction. So when you say "we see ego differently" you don't know how I see ego, because you're obviously referring to the wrong thing. I was hoping that you could take a brief moment of self reflection, asking "where can this guy possibly see ego at Meat Ball?", and after discarding the obvious non-starters, you may come to see what I see, and this can be valuable to you.

Sure there's plenty of ego to go around on c2 as well, no doubt about that. There is no simple way to get rid of it, nor do I want it to disappear completely, but I know some ways. The cathalytic or the paralyzing role of ego in communities can be quite a subject. -- Costin

Costin, perhaps I'm slow to understand, but who cares. You are perhaps faster, that's nice for you. This is something you want talk about. You talk about Sunir being stressed, about David being inexperienced, about Meat Ball having little value compared with Wards Wiki. You talk a lot about such things. That way you assume the role of a judge, self-assigned. Of course, some people dislike that and the typical reaction is to go into "defend-attack" communication patterns. Do you enjoy that or does this happen unintentionally? -- Helmut Leitner

Along with Wiki Wiki Web, Meatball Wiki has also declined in the past two years. There are more egos there now than before. Correlation, causation. -- Sunir Shah

Helmut in your latest addition to MeatBallCommentary could you consider rephrasing "all available knowledge ...MeatBall" to "plenty of available knowledge ...MeatBall and WardsWiki"? I have actually been looking through related material at both sites, some similar, some complementary and I feel my suggestion for change could be better. Thanks for considering. -- dl

No problem, I changed it. Although, I looked through Wards Wiki recently and didn't find much about the problem of making an online consensus. Could you point me to the corresponding pages? -- Helmut Leitner

Helmut I do not know much about the type of "online consensu" material you seek. Material here is probably scattered about (within and across pages) as you may expect from years of work from a large but unstable list of community participants. Can you point me to 10 or less resources on Meat Ball? And I will try to find something here, but these are less academic oriented and may disappoint you.

BTW I have reused Higher Principles to launch a simple list of "essentials" (all page names). You views are sought in the associated discussion page. Thx -- dl

David, thank you for your help. What do you think about (me, us) creating something like a consensus roadmap, linking to all pages here and at meatball? Maybe it could provide some understanding of the wholeness and the differences between our communities?

I need to concentrate looking for a job, would slow everyone down. And I am not the academic type. Takes too much learning. It is like proposing interplanetary travel research as a solution to overpopulation on earth. [I am a contradictory and incoherent person too :)]

Helmut I tried to edit a page on Meat Ball, and it goes into perpetual "loading" mode. If there is a new procedure could you mod the existing C2 Meat Ball page please? Thanks from David Liu

David, I had the same problem occasionally during the last few days. Meat Ball moved to a new server and there may be some problems related to the move. I'll describe my problems in a few days, if they persist. -- Helmut

It's our Open Proxy detector. You will be tested once a month. -- Sunir Shah

RE: Wiki Peace. I was the other user. What can be added "arbitrarily without reasoning or discussion" can be removed just the same. Since nobody signed it to begin with and I requested that contribution to that page be assumed since they seemed of dubious value, but that request was itself removed from the page, it followed quite logically that the only way to move forward was to take the page at face value :) So I did just that by removing bad advice from the page and therefore improving it.

In all honesty the page was started badly to begin with, and in itself is an Anti Pattern in wiki behavior.

In fact you didn't delete my additional point, but a few older ones - so it seems that we had no big disagreement on mine. That's fine because otherwise I would have had to challenge you on some of your false assumptions, e. g. that addition and deletion are operations symmetrical in nature. -- Helmut to Costin

These are typical of the Costin attitude. He "demands" something, expects the other party to respond to his demands in the time frame and manner that he demands. If he is unsatisfied, he deletes or takes Editorial Control. If you use NewRecentChanges you may still be able to see the dispute he has with RK day or so ago. A few months ago he made similar demands on a "Kyle Brown " written page, possibly already aware that Kyle Brown has not been active here for a long long time.

What I term as the "Costin attitude" is probably behavior of a group of very bright young individuals who quite possibly has not worked in society long enough to appreciate the value of positive dialogues. My advice for others is to "go slow" with these people so your own emotional balance is not going to be tripped by these encounters.

I think one of the byproducts of these experiences is that people "can become" less careful about their contributions. You never know if and when your work gets challenged by one or more persons, with or without good cause, and before long, another edit war starts. On Community Wiki C2 is being classified as "scratch wiki" and I think this has lots to do with it. -- dl

David, I think that wiki users should not judge each other. It seems unimportant to me whether someone is young or inexperienced or colored or chess-player or what he did back in the past. Important is what he says and how he behaves now. It's a always a problem to label people and act towards that label. I like the way you feel about Wards Wiki and seek for joining people to help going forward. On the other hand, many of Costin's arguments are sound and I will not deny that only because he has made lots of enemies. We should try to seek common ground. It is important to understand each others expectations and cooperate. -- Helmut

You are of course correct. And at the same time there are often "multiple truths" in matters related to human interactions.

I am actually not focused on Costin the person, rather the "win lose binary thinking" that happens to be characterised by the "visible Costin". So in that sense I have been unfair about Costin the person, but the behavior pattern of a group of people similar to Costin is not helping collaboration, I think. This is because the same community of people cannot afford to repeatedly apply precious resources to interact with new people that behave in similar manners.

I have not been very clear on this. I may try again later with the new Playnice "CoffeeShopStory" page that can be deleted after discussion is over. Bear in mind my English needs refactoring as it take lots of my effort to write clearly and concisely.

BTW I quite admire the courage of Costin the person to stand out and explain his actions. I think plenty others do worse things using Ip Username and without proper dialog. And I think XxxxWayOrTheHighway, I did not write the now deleted page that had Costin name in it, is not the Wiki Way as I understand it. -- dl

It's a nice story but in real life such stories rarely have a happy ending. -- Dont Look At The Finger. Single persons are never the problem. The (lack of) community is the problem. -- Helmut Leitner

On Costin Mind Wipe you wrote:

Repelling A or B doesn't solve the problem. There is no single individual who is to blame but in thousands of interactions everyone contributes to the problem day by day. When I hear A talking about the "crap of B", it really hurts. Think twice before you use such words. Tomorrow you will have to depend on each other, have to seek a consensus. Why do you insist to be losers? Why don't you create a vision and play that wiki game together as a team of winners?

Because we're not idiots and we know that there is no compromise between dissent and orthodoxy, between creation and destruction. Because we don't think that avoiding a Borg uni-mind is to be "losers". Because we don't go in for transparent marketroid manipulation. Because you don't know what you're talking about, neither about me nor Costin nor Wiki nor even rights (though you persist in rambling brainlessly about them). Wiki Wiki is The City and your insistence on judging it by small-town values is ridiculous. -- RK

A few dozens of active participants - knowing each other at least by name - don't make a city, only a small village. Socially Wards Wiki is more like the survivors of an airplane wrecked on an island. You and Costin and others form an orthodoxy thinking it's natural to go for a "wolf pack" hierarchy of social status by individual challenges, debates and fighting. I'm in the role of the dissenter promoting to build a community and to go for constitutional elements. -- Helmut Leitner

I have not responded to your question re: RightToChangeMyMind but I have added comments to Gunnar Zarncke Home Page I would like you to look at ASAP before CC starts manipulating again. -- dl

Hast Du Dich umentschieden? Category German --Manorainjan Holzapfel

See original on c2.com